@PaulaToThePeople It isn't just a matter of consent. Besides, for example, I do have quote-post control here on Hubzilla.

I can give permission to quote-post my posts to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• everyone on Hubzilla and (streams)
• everyone on this hub
• approved and unapproved connections
• only approved connections
• only those of my connections whom I explicitly give permission by contact role
• nobody but myself

Over on (streams), I can still give that permission to

• everyone in the Fediverse
• all my connections
• only myself + specific connections whom I grant that permission either by permission role or by individual connection settings

It's much more a matter of technology.

Mastodon is about to completely re-invent the wheel with a non-standard, Mastodon-only setting. This setting will only work within Mastodon simply because it probably won't even be documented anywhere, especially not before it's officially rolled out.

There simply is no way that every last instance of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. will have that setting implemented before Mastodon rolls it out so that even the users on mastodon.social are perfectly safe from the first second on.

Besides, @Mike Macgirvin , creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and still the only maintainer of the latter two, will never introduce proprietary Mastodon features to them. He'd rather risk (streams) and Forte becoming incompatible with Mastodon. The same goes for @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, Hubzilla's main maintainers.

If Mastodon wants to become a perfectly safe haven against unallowed quote-posting, it has only got one choice: It must introduce something like (streams)' and Forte's user agent filter and use it to block just everything that isn't Mastodon. Like, include a hard-coded allowlist that only includes Mastodon plus what little can't quote or quote-post anyway.

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@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200 I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

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Mike Macgirvin schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200 The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

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@Stefan Bohacek

Also worth mentioning that quote boosts, which have also recently received funding, will include work on privacy and safety features around them, possibly extending to other areas of the online experience.

These "privacy and safety features" are non-sense.

They're proprietary, they're non-standard, they're Mastodon-specific. And they are expected to work only by respecting a proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-specific quote-post permission flag which probably won't even be documented anywhere except Mastodon's server code.

The opt-out feature will only work within a 100% Mastodon bubble and even that only if no non-Mastodon user finds content from within this bubble by searching mastodon.social for hashtags.

Mastodon is selling its whole quote-post feature as a total revolution, as the very introduction of quote-posts to the Fediverse. And it will work. I've once run a poll on whether the Fediverse has quote-posts. 71% of all voters thought the Fediverse does not have quote-posts right now. And that was in my bubble which, in comparison to Mastodon in general, is fairly Fediverse-savvy and full of non-Mastodon users.

But as a matter of fact, the Fediverse does have quote-posts right now! Almost everything that can do microblogging in a way has quote-posts.

Pleroma has quote-posts.

Akkoma has quote-posts.

Misskey has quote-posts.

Firefish has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp.NET has quote-posts.

Sharkey has quote-posts.

Catodon has quote-posts.

Friendica has quote-posts.

Hubzilla has quote-posts.

(streams) has quote-posts.

And so forth.

They haven't introduced quote-posts to spite Mastodon. Some of them have had quote-posts since before Mastodon even existed. Friendica, for example, was created with quote-posts available, and that was five and a half years before Mastodon was created. For as long as Mastodon has existed, Friendica could quote-post Mastodon toots. And so could Hubzilla, created ten months before Mastodon.

In fact, all of the above can quote-post any Mastodon toot right now, with no problems, with zero resistance.

Guess what'll change when Mastodon introduces quote-posts plus the opt-in switch.

Well, Mastodon will be able to quote-post. Mastodon might be able to display quote-posts from outside properly, but probably not because it's ignoring that the rest of the Fediverse can quote-post.

But the rest of the Fediverse will still be able to quote-post just about all Mastodon toots. With no problems. With zero resistance. Even with the opt-in switched to off.

Because that switch is proprietary, non-standard and Mastodon-specific. Because only Mastodon even supports it.

This switch will cause many many more Mastodon users to learn the hard way that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. Namely by encountering a post or comment from something that does not behave like Mastodon. And many many more Mastodon users will shit bricks in sheer terror upon this revelation.

If Mastodon really wanted this switch to be 100% waterproof, it would have to implement the feature request in its entirety. That includes defederation from all Fediverse instances that don't respect the opt-in switch.

Mind you, the defederation clause and the entire feature request came from someone in the firm belief that the Fediverse is Mastodon, only Mastodon and nothing but Mastodon. Just like about every other Mastodon user out there. So it was only targetted at rogue Mastodon instances with hacked source code.

In reality, however, it would require entire non-Mastodon Fediverse projects to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch.

All instances of Pleroma, of Akkoma, of Misskey, of Firefish, of Iceshrimp including Iceshrimp.NET, of Sharkey, of Catodon, of Friendica, of Hubzilla, of (streams) and so forth would have to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch. Every last one of them.

Mastodon's quote-post feature will either cause a rift through the Fediverse if this rule is put into action or even more people to shit bricks in terror and escape to Bluesky if it isn't.

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@utopiArte I wasn't only posting this with raw technology in mind. I was also thinking about cultural differences that arose from the technological differences.

Friendica and Hubzilla are technologically very different from Mastodon. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are rather used to that. They try to cope with it the best they can, although this alone brings its own bunch of issues with itself.

Mastodon users, on the other hand, are not used to it. Many of them have come to Mastodon from Twitter over the last two years, believing that Mastodon is only one Web site. And pretty much all of them, every last one of them, came to Mastodon, believing that the Fediverse that everyone talks about is Mastodon. And nothing else.

Those who have invited them to Mastodon have not told them that Mastodon is connected to things that aren't Mastodon, much less that Mastodon is connected to things that are very much not Mastodon.

Nearly all Twitter refugees on Mastodon have spent their first several months on Mastodon in this belief. They've settled into and gotten used to a Fediverse that's only Mastodon.

Many, not all of them, but many have since found out that there are things in the Fediverse that are very different from Mastodon. For not exactly few, it was a disturbing, if not outright traumatising experience to see that some Fediverse users can post over 500 characters at once. Or that some Fediverse users can easily "quote-toot" Mastodon toots, using something which is used on 𝕏 to harass members of marginalised minorities.

They didn't want that. They still don't want that. They want to make it go away again, so disturbing is it.

By and by, at least some Mastodon users face other differences between Mastodon on the one side and things like Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) on the other side. For example, what the way these three handle conversations means in practice for users of Mastodon which doesn't have a concept of conversations. Or that Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users do not react when someone on Mastodon mentions them out of the blue. Everyone on Mastodon would notice it, so it's beyond a Mastodon user's comprehension that Friendica and Hubzilla users don't notice it by default.

So on the one hand, Mastodon users are increasingly stressed out by Friendica being Friendica and Hubzilla being Hubzilla. They ask themselves: "Why did they make everything so different from Mastodon? Why couldn't they have made it all just like Mastodon in the first place?"

It's incomprehensible to them that Friendica and Hubzilla were both made before Mastodon. For how can something in the Fediverse possible pre-date Eugen Rochko's invention of the Fediverse? It's also incomprehensible to them that something in the Fediverse can be something else than a Twitter clone. Or they simply don't know how Facebook, which Friendica aims to be an alternative to, works differently from Twitter as well.

On the other hand, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are increasingly stressed out by Mastodon users trying to force Mastodon's culture upon them, along with Mastodon's limitations. Not few Mastodon users try to make Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) behave more like Mastodon by putting pressure on their users to a) always do everything the Mastodon way and b) stop making use of features that Mastodon doesn't have.

If you've never come across a Mastodon user complaining about a post or comment of yours being too long because you've exceeded the holy limit of 500 characters, then I'm very certain that you will.

Food for thought: This entire conflict would disappear with a split. Mastodon users would be spared from utterly non-Mastodon things. And non-Mastodon uers would be spared from demands to stop making use of 90% of all features they have at hand just because Mastodon doesn't have them.

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