@psykon Mention and describe the emphasis. But don't use all-caps in alt-text.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@iFixit

and it doesn't look like you can attach documents to posts

You can't on Mastodon. I could, both here on Hubzilla and on (streams) where I post my images.

But I wouldn't have to. Vanilla Mastodon has a character limit of 500. Hubzilla has a character "limit" that's so staggeringly high that nobody knows how high it is because it doesn't matter. (streams), from the same creator and the same software family as Hubzilla, has a character "limit" of over 24,000,000 which is not an arbitrary design decision but simply the size of the database field.

By the way: Both are in the Fediverse, and both are federated with Mastodon, so Mastodon's "all media must have accurate and sufficiently detailed descriptions" rule applies there as well unless you don't care if thousands upon thousands of Mastodon users block you for not supplying image and media descriptions.

In theory, I could publish a video of ten minutes, and in the same post, I could add a full, timestamped description that takes several hours to read. Verbatim transcript of all spoken words. Detailed description of the visuals where "detailed" means "as detailed as Mastodon loves its alt-texts" as in "800 characters of alt-text or more for a close-up of a single flower in front of a blurry background" detailed. Detailed description of all camera movements and cuts. Description of non-spoken-word noises. All timestamped, probably with over a hundred timestamps for the whole description of ten minutes of video.

Now I'm wondering if that could be helpful or actually required, or if it's overkill and actually a hindrance.

CC: @masukomi @GunChleoc

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #MediaDescription #MediaDescriptions

@vulgalour First of all, "image description" and "alt-text" don't mean the same thing.

Alt-text is what's added directly to the image. It's what screen readers used by blind or visually-impaired people read out loud as they can't "read out loud" an image. It's what people see instead of the image if the image doesn't show for them (text-based client, too slow Internet connection, whatever).

Alt-text should never convey more information than the image which it is a replacement for.

An image description that goes into the post itself is not alt-text.

I don't see any rule or part of the "Fediquette" or "Mastodon culture" that speaks against adding that additional information to a reply.

Whether it works or not depends on whether your customers accept it or not. I guess that 99% of your aspiring customers in the Fediverse will be on Mastodon, only see your start post and not be bothered to check the replies. So my suggestion is to leave room in the original post for tellling your customers that prices can be found in a reply to that post.

But seeing as this will happen to you a lot, it may be worth looking for someplace that offers you more than 500 characters:

• a Mastodon instance with a raised character limit
• Pleroma (5,000 characters by default, configurable by the admin)
• Akkoma (5,000 characters by default, configurable by the admin)
• Misskey (3,000 characters, hard-coded; just steer clear of misskey.io)
• the various forks of Misskey and forks of their forks like Iceshrimp or Sharkey (thousands of characters by default, configurable by the admin)

If you need a five-digit character count, the best you can do requires basically re-learning the Fediverse, mastering a significantly steeper learning curve and very likely abandoning dedicated apps. Here we're talking about Mike Macgirvin's creations from Friendica (200,000 characters) to Hubzilla (probably even higher) to (streams) and Forte (over 24,000,000 characters).

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@vulgalour If the prices can be read in the image, you should add them to the alt-text. A price tag is text, and text must be transcribed.

If the prices are not in the image, they go into the post text. If you only have 500 characters, make room for them. But do not only make them available in the alt-text.

Not everyone can access alt-text. There are people with physical disabilities who cannot open an alt-text. Information that is only available in the alt-text, but neither in the post text nor in the image itself, is inaccessible and lost to them. This means that information must be in the image and the alt-text or in the post text, but never only in the alt-text.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Schafstelze

(überflüssige Details auf der einen, fehlende wichtige Info auf der anderen Seite)

Im Endeffekt ist das Beschreiben von Bildern also eine Gratwanderung, um nicht Hochseilakt zu sagen, wo man exakt das Optimum finden muß. Minimal darunter oder darüber ist schon sanktionierungswürdig.

Und kopiert es dorthin wo es hingehört, nämlich in die Medienbeschreibung direkt am Medium.

Damit wäre also auch meine Vorgehensweise "illegal": relativ kurze, aber einigermaßen detaillierte Beschreibung im Alt-Text plus zusätzlich lange, hochdetaillierte Beschreibung inklusive aller notwendigen Erklärungen und inklusive Transkripten aller Texte innerhalb der Grenzen des Bildes im Post selbst (kein erwähnenswertes Zeichenlimit hier). Genau das sehe ich bei meinen eigenen Bildern aber als notwendig an.

Das Problem ist hier nur: Zumindest Erklärungen gehören niemals in den Alt-Text. Manche Menschen haben körperliche Behinderungen, die es ihnen unmöglich machen, Alt-Texte aufzurufen. Wenn Informationen nur im Alt-Text zu finden sind und weder im Post noch im Bild, dann sind diese Informationen für sie verloren.

CC: @Groschenromanautorin

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta

@LucileDT I always explain my image posts extensively because I know they always need extensive explanations, being about very obscure topics and such.

But I don't do so in the alt-text. You should never explain anything in the alt-text. Not everyone can access alt-text. Besides, I'd quickly exceed 1,500 characters which would cause Mastodon, Misskey and their forks to cut my alt-texts off.

Instead, my explanations go into the posts themselves which are almost unlimited. In the case of my original images, the explanations are part of a second, much longer and much more detailed image description in the post.

CC: @chikl @Neil Brown

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@undead enby of the apocalypse It depends.

My original images, rare as they are, are even more niche than @Zeewater's, namely renderings from extremely obscure 3-D virtual worlds. This is something that maybe one out of 200,000 Fediverse users "has a basic understanding of". The other 199,999 need explanations.

I've long since decided how much detail is relevant, based on who may come across my images, and what they may be interested in. As I don't limit my target audience although I could, I write my image descriptions for random strangers who stumble upon a post of mine on some federated timeline. Considering the topic, they might be interested in everything in the image, regardless of context. And yes, at the same time, they may not be fully sighted.

And so I go to such detail that I need two image descriptions. A "short" and purely visual description in the alt-text (which still tends to grow to 1,500 characters, complete with the note where a longer description can be found), and a long, detailed description with all necessary explanations and all text transcripts in the post itself (I don't have any character limits to worry about).

CC: @Neil Brown

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Garry Knight @qurly(not curly)joe This, by the way, is something that next to nobody in the Fediverse knows, and that many will deny and fight with all they can:

Alt-text must never include exclusive information that is neither in the post text nor in the image itself. Such information must always go into the post itself. If you don't have room in the post, add it to a reply or multiple.

That's because not everybody can access alt-text. Certain physical disabilities can make accessing alt-text impossible, for example, if someone can't use their hands. Money quote from way down this comment thread:

Deborah schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Mon, 10 Jul 2023 23:30:45 +0200 @jupiter_rowland

I have a disability that prevents me from seeing alt text, because on almost all platforms, seeing the alt requires having a screenreader or working hands. If you post a picture, is there info that you want somebody who CAN see the picture but DOESN’T have working hands to know? Write that in visible text. If you put that in the alt, you are explicitly excluding people like me.

But you don’t have to overthink it. The description of the image itself is a simple concept.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Inclusion #A11y #Accessibility #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuoteBoost

@Monstreline @qurly(not curly)joe @Claire (sometimes Carla) One thing you could do is search mastodon.social for the #AltText hashtag which many put on their posts with alt-text. Also, search mastodon.social for the #AltTextHallOfFame hashtag and follow @Alt Text Hall of Fame.

However, I'm not sure if that will lead to the desired outcome. Checking Mastodon users' alt-texts and the reactions upon these was part of what led myself to what one may argue is "overthinking" image descriptions for the Fediverse. In fact, I ended up describing all my original images twice, including with a long image description in the post itself. And I'm constantly upping my game, improving my style and declaring old image descriptions obsolete because I keep learning new things and trying new things.

Granted, you may not be inspired to go as far as I did, seeing as you've got 500 characters in posts whereas I have hundreds of thousands or even millions. But still, chances are that analysing other people's alt-texts may have you overthink image descriptions even more rather than less.

For reference, here are my latest original image posts in reverse chronological order (the older, the more obsolete):

• Happy 17th birthday, OSgrid!
• Universal Campus: The mother of all mega-regions
• Inspector Jupiter Rowland, Scotland Yard...
• The upcycling and upgrading of Clutterfly furniture continues
• When old meets new: Arcadia Asylum exhibits at OpenSimFest 2023

In each case, the post including image(s) is hidden behind a summary and content warning. In the first post, the images themselves are additionally hidden behind a spoiler tag as an extra safety measure due to their potentially sensitive content.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #OpenSim #OpenSimulator #Metaverse #VirtualWorlds #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@sunflowerinrain @Tarnport From what I've read, a digital photograph is considered the default. So for brevity reasons, it must not be mentioned.

Any other media must be mentioned, whether it's a painting, a screenshot from a social media app, a scanned analogue photograph, a flowchart, a CAD blueprint, a 3-D rendering or whatever.

But an alt-text must never start with "Image of", "Picture of" or "Photo of". That's considered bad style and a waste of characters and screen-reading time. If the medium is not mentioned, digital photograph falls into its place as a default.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@settima @Cynicism is Obedience

You:

• Post an image without alt-text.
• Add the hashtag #Alt4Me and/or #AltText4Me to your post.

Someone else:

• Finds your post.
• Replies with an alt-text proposal.
• Adds the hashtag #Alt4U and/or #Alt4You and/or #AltText4U and/or #AltText4You to their reply.

Then you:

• Copy the alt-text proposal.
• Edit your post.
• Paste the copied alt-text proposal into the alt-text of the image.
• Thank whoever sent you the alt-text proposal.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@crypticcelery There's generally too little feedback on image descriptions. There should be more praise for really good image descriptions, and there should be more constructive criticism.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@crypticcelery I'm not quite sure if that's such a good idea. I mean, it may make trying to replace other users' alt-texts with your own ones commonplace.

I mean, Mastodon in particular is escalating
from going against no alt-text
to going against non-descriptive alt-text
to going against bad alt-text
to going against not enough alt-text.

The days of "better than nothing" are over. Mastodon is heading straight for going against any kinds of alt-text that isn't optimal, for any individual definition of optimal. It's dragging the rest of the Fediverse with itself by and by. And if suggesting replacement alt-texts for any alt-texts that someone personally deems less than optimal becomes the norm, you'll end up with disputes and flame wars over what's the optimal alt-text in lots of image post threads.

That's because there is absolutely no consensus on what's "enough" or "optimal" alt-text, or if there's such a thing as "too much" alt-text. That's also because people who are interested in accessibility don't talk with each other, neither alt-text activists nor blind or visually-impaired people. Too many people think they have the One True Recipe for describing any possible image.

What makes matters more difficult are obscure edge-cases that don't really fit into any existing scheme. Not all images are cat photos, event posters or social media screenshots. There's even less consensus on describing these edge-cases.

On the other end: Would you be annoyed by this?

Truth be told, it's highly unlikely in my case.

If I spend hours or even days describing one single image in 900 characters in a 1,500-character-altogether alt-text and, on top of that, additionally in tens of thousands of characters of long description in the post itself (no, seriously, I do that, and I've got proof), I don't think that someone will come with two even more detailed and even more massive image descriptions and ask me to replace mine with theirs.

But if someone came and tried to pressure me into replacing my 1,500-character alt-text with their 200-character alt-text and delete my tens-of-thousands-of-characters long description entirely, then I'd be annoyed.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility

@Alt Text Hall of Fame @David Bloom Yes.

Explanations, or any other information available neither in the image nor in the post text, must never ever go into the alt-text. That's because not everyone can access alt-text. And to those who can't access alt-text, any information exclusively available in alt-text is inaccessible and therefore lost.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

@Jools Ihr habt's doch noch gut. Genau wie (streams), wo es auch ein Eingabefeld für Alt-Text gibt. Und ihr müßt das pro Bild nur einmal machen.

Hier auf Hubzilla muß für Alt-Text der Einbettungscode im Postentwurf umgearbeitet werden. Das heißt, man muß händisch an rohen BBcode ran. Und offiziell ist das nirgendwo dokumentiert.

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta

@Kagan MacTane Of course, what details need to be described depends on the answer to this question:

Is there a chance that someone who can't see the image might be curious about what an element in the image looks like while definitely not knowing what it looks like?

If the answer is, "Yes," then describing that element is at least justified, if not even mandatory. In this case, inclusion overrules convenience.

Beyond that, I've got four things to criticise about the alt-text in that post.

One, double quotation marks from the keyboard do not belong into alt-text. Two, line feeds do not belong into alt-text either. Just because Mastodon renders both as intended, doesn't mean everything renders them as intended.

Hubzilla renders double quotes from the keyboard as &⁠quot;. (streams) cuts the alt-text off at the first double quote because it internally uses double quotes as alt-text delimiters. When there's a double quote from the keyboard in alt-text, (streams) thinks it marks the end of the alt-text.

Three, URLs don't belong into alt-text because they can't be opened by a browser from alt-text.

Four, about the URL again, there must never be any information exclusively available in alt-text. Not everyone can access alt-text. Some people are prevented from accessing alt-text due to various physical disabilities. Any information available only in alt-text, but neither in the post itself nor in the image is inaccessible and therefore lost to them.

Explanations of any kind go into the post, regardless of character limits.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Inclusion #Inclusivity #A11y #Accessibility